Учимся импровизировать

Roman · Сообщение **Roman** » Пт июл 10, 2009 22:00

Konstantink52 писал(а):С огромным удовольствием ознакомлюсь. Насколько скоро?

Надеюсь, до конца этого года выйдет.

Инженер

Roman писал(а):Вот выйдет скоро мой учебник для пианистов, тогда сами и убедитесь, какую практическую ценность он для Вас может представлять

Надеюсь,что основная его часть будет звучащей; а не как у Агрелла?

Roman · Сообщение **Roman** » Сб июл 11, 2009 06:44

Инженер писал(а):
Roman писал(а):Вот выйдет скоро мой учебник для пианистов, тогда сами и убедитесь, какую практическую ценность он для Вас может представлять
Надеюсь,что основная его часть будет звучащей; а не как у Агрелла?

Нет, аудиоприложения к этому изданию не планируется, хотя нотных примеров предостаточно. Но есть идея сделать видеошколу и издать отдельно.

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Видеуроки с учениками- по моему наилучший метод для создания настоящего дидактического материала по свободной импровизации.Объяснений что и как делать(Агрелл)-просто недостаточно,нужно услышать; но лучше увидеть.Услышать конечный результат мастера - тоже недостаточно(Криспелл); требуется начать с ученического уровня. И одного результата недостаточно,требуются варианты для сравнения - или того же ученики,но лучше разных.
А ноты тут подходят для записи тем и каких-то указаний.

Что вы можете практически вынести для себя из следующего извлечения из университетского издания по курсу импровизации ?
http://www.divshare.com/download/7882602-e99

Roman · Сообщение **Roman** » Сб июл 11, 2009 14:33

Инженер писал(а):Что вы можете практически вынести для себя из следующего извлечения из университетского издания по курсу импровизации ?

Из данного издания - только очень общую теоретическую информацию. Не наш путь

Инженер

Ну ,что же - в добрый час!

Инженер

Вдруг вспомнились методы для импровизации на основе додекафонии.Ясно,что полностью додекафонная импровизация невозможна; однако можно к примеру выучить пару додекафонных мелодических линий во всех транспозициях,а затем использовать целиком.Более практичен другой путь: разбить ряд на 3-4 сегмента,и использовать каждый сегмент в отдельности- в свободных транспозициях и пермутациях; а также для создания созвучий,созвучных(какая тавтология!) ряду.

Roman · Сообщение **Roman** » Сб июл 11, 2009 15:44

Инженер писал(а):Вдруг вспомнились методы для импровизации на основе додекафонии.Ясно,что полностью додекафонная импровизация невозможна....

Был такой человек в Красноярске - Борис Толстобоков, пианист, серьёзно занимавшийся додекафонной импровизацией. У него даже вышла пара методичек в 80-е годы. К сожалению, его уже с нами нет...

Вот тутАлександр фон Шлиппенбах признаётся, что занимается изучением импровизационных возможностей додекафонии.

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Роман Кунсман,который последовательно использовал додекафонию, при жизни играл с Шлиппенбахом.Интересно ,что его первая стадия ознакомления с джазом в точности соответствовалf тому,что происходило в совке с конца 50-х гг.

Konstantink52

Инженер писал(а):Что вы можете практически вынести для себя из следующего извлечения из университетского издания по курсу импровизации ?

Не могу читать на английском настолько хорошо, чтоб что-то для себя вынести.
Можно о музыке?

Мое отношение: то, что прозвучало - не совсем импровизация, автором в общем все нотировано, пусть не дословно и с допуском определенной свободы выбора вариантов звучания, причем, сами варианты указаны автором. Нельзя же глиссандо назвать элементом импровизации, хоть оно тоже дословно не нотируется.
Или я что-то не так понял?

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Konstantink52 писал(а):Или я что-то не так понял?

Вы действительно не поняли.Я привел только один пример из сборника,содержащего 4 книжки.Как раз в предисловии указаны типы пьес:
a. пьесы,написанные от начала до конца;
б / 'открытые пьесы ", которые должны быть завершены исполнителем.
с / пути импровизации - даны лишь некоторые основы и основные характеристики . Это вряд ли может называться моей композицией ; реализации каждой из них будет радикально отличаться от исполнителя к исполнителю, - и даже у того же исполнителя.
D упражнения, предназначенные больше для медитации,чем для публичного исполнения
E, модель -так называется пьеса целиком посвященная демонстрации принципа;
F; игры , в которых манипуляции с элементами более важны, чем конечный результат;
G /энигмы,в которых автор просил исполнителя найти одно или несколько решений;

Bobby McFerrin Demonstrates the Power of the Pentatonic Scale

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Это что же?

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Советы Монка

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Владислав «vvb5p» писал(а):Советы Монка

Сомнительно,если судить по тому,что мне рассказал Дюи Редман.Например: у Монка не было репетиций.

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Thelonious Monk's Advice, Archived By Steve Lacy

и еще

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BILL EVANS, THE TEACHER:

Bill Evans was a teacher at the "Lenox School of Jazz" in Massachusetts, a school only running from 1957 to 1960. The institute became one of the most important centers of jazz performance and education in the country. Dizzy Gillespie, John Lewis, Dave Brubeck and many others also gave jazz lectures. As a peculiarity, Bill Evans plays two tracks on a rare album "Lenox School Of Jazz Concert" (1959). "Personal students of Evans say that he would never spell out anything he did for them: chord voicings, fast passages, whatever-you just had to figure it out if you really wanted it. He was insisting on the same standards of authenticity for his student as he claimed for himself. This is what Evans, the teacher, wanted. We didn't need any more Bill Evanses. His teaching approach challenged the student to be as deep and as original as he was". (Allaboutjazz)

�When you begin to teach jazz, the most dangerous thing is that you tend to teach style. I had eleven piano students, and I would say eight of them didn�t even want to know about chords or anything - they didn�t even want to do anything that anybody had ever done, because they didn�t want to be imitators. Well, of course, this is pretty naive, but nevertheless it does bring to light the fact that if you�re going to try to teach jazz you must abstract the principles of music which have nothing to do with style, and this is exceedingly difficult. So there, the teaching of jazz is a very touchy point. It ends up where the jazz player, ultimately, if he�s going to be a serious jazz player, teaches himself.� �It�s performing without any really set basis for the lines and the content as such emotionally or, specifically, musically. And if you sit down and contemplate what you�re going to do, and take five hours to write five minutes of music, then it�s composed music. Therefore I would put it in the classical or serious, whatever you want to call it, written-music category. So there�s composed music and there�s jazz. And to me anybody that makes music using the process that we are using in jazz, is playing jazz.�

"Obviously," Bill said, "you can't find in jazz the perfection of craft that is possible in other music. Yet oddly enough, this lack of perfection can result in good jazz. For example in classical music a mistake is a mistake. But in jazz a mistake can be - in fact, must be - justified by what follows it. If you were improvising a speech and started a sentence in a way you hadn't intended, you would have to carry it out so that it would make sense. It is the same in spontaneous music". (Gene Lees: "Meet Me at Jim and Andy's", Oxford University Press, 1988)

I would say to a young musician: "If you play too many things at one time, your whole approach will be vague. You wan't know what to leave in and what to take out. Know very clearly what you're doing and why - play much less, but be very clear about it. It's much better to spend 30 hours on one tune than to play 30 tunes in one hour. Play anything, read a lot, then break off, try to get into something with one particular tune. Learn the basic structure. You know, you have to repair some things in sheet music - you'll sense a chord or a phrase that seems weak, so ask yourself, why is it weak? Then set about trying to find the right chord, the one your instinct tells you is right. Take an idea - any idea. Play it upside down, backwards, change the register, the key, the rhythm and so on. Take any combination of notes that might occur to you and try to find 18 different ways of doing it."
(Interview with Marian McPartland in Down Beat, october 17, 1968)

"Certainly try to master your instrument as much as possible, so that you can express what you want to express. I don't know other than that, because a true talent knows where to select and what to select and they can't really go wrong. I am rather a firm believer in a conservatory approach to music. I think that a real talent knows how to use the disciplines that a really strict conservatory curriculum can give them. It can give them more tools than a more liberal type of curriculum; but that's probably a matter of opinion. I can also see a great advantage to schools like Berklee or Texas State, where you have the constant stimulation of other jazz players - jamming all the time and being able to hear things you arrange. I think that's just a superb opportunity. But along with that I think that there should be some universal principles of music that are taught through traditional disciplines. A person has to become very respectful of the motion of one tone in any place in music, just the step of one tone to another place a half-step away or a whole-step away or whatever. He has to truly respect that and realizer the importance of musical motion and economy and things like that, which can only come from strict theoretical dicipline. But on the other hand, a true talent imposes these things on himself, and there are many examples of unschooled artists or relatively unschooled artists who give evidence of having given great consideration to these problems, and having devoted many years to working on them without someone leading them through, so I think the talent is always the ultimate thing. If the person is really exceptional, they'll find their way."
(From an interview with Michael Spector, Contemporary Keyboard, 1977)

"I focus rather on specific theoretical problems of the piano, on the structure of my phrasing, on the quality of my musical language, and I think this is the key issue on which a musician should concentrate. Those who study the piano should always keep this in mind: first you should have a complete vision of the structure of what you play; then, just expose the structure of the theme in a manner you have determined yourself."

THE IMPROVISATION CONCEPT AND STYLE OF BILL EVANS

"Musicians must have the confidence to find their own style, regardless of the prevailing musical style of the day. First of all, I never strive for identity. That's something that just has happened automatically as a result, I think, of just putting things together, tearing things apart and putting it together my own way, and somehow I guess the individual comes through eventually." (Enstice, Wayne and Rubin. Jazz Spoken Here: Conversations with Twenty-two Musicians. LSU Press, 1992.)

Have also a look at the DVD "The Universal Mind Of Bill Evans". Bill Evans teaches the meaning of jazz, through live performance. The registration is filmed as an informal, engaging discussion between Bill Evans and his brother Harry who was professor of music at Louisiana State University. This documentary features in-depth discussion of Evans' internal process of song interpretation, improvisation, and repertoire. Through demonstration on the piano, Bill illustrates his own conception of solo piano and how to interpret and expand upon the melody and underlying chord structure.

From an interview of a private concert in Helsinki, Finland in 1969: "I mean jazz is a certain process that is not an intellectual process. You use your intellect to take apart the materials and learn to understand them and learn to work with them. But, actually, it takes years and years of playing to develop the facility so that you can forget all of that and just relax, and just play."

From an interview with Dan Morgenstern in Down Beat, 1964: "Bill Evans - a man of many parts: the art of playing". Bill Evans is concerned with freedom in music.
"The only way I can work is to have some kind of restraint involved, the challenge of a certain craft or form, and to find the freedom in that, which is a hell of a job."

The improvisation concept of Bill Evans is a result of hard analytical process that started in Bill�s college years and finished at his death in 1980. Bill was a musician that was never satisfied with his own playing, resulting in constant development in his own music. In interviews, Evans often stressed that pianists should thoroughly learn technique and harmony so that they can put their inspiration to maximum use. Since he already had those tools in hand, he worked very hard on his touch, getting the special, refined tone that he wanted out of a piano. "Any musician who is outstanding has had to put together a total picture out of a million pieces he has picked up - it's cumulative - you accept and reject. There are no magic moments that, sort of, solve all problems, you know. It's just a long hard trip. But it's a wonderful trip if it's what you want, otherwise it would be incredibly impossible."

Jazzpianist and composer Dan Papirany (1967, Tel Aviv, Israel) has identified 3 different stages of Bill Evans' musical development:

1) The first period (1956-1970) were he sounds like Bud Powell with �horn like� phrases, and an
economical harmonic approach.
2) The second period is from 1970-1978 were Bill�s harmony consist of mainly 3 and 4 tone voicing,
and the melody is characterized by more forceful rhythm, longer pauses between phrases, usage
of chromatic intervals mixed with large intervals.
3) In the third period that lasted only two years Bill�s playing was more adventurous and consisted of
phrases that he never used before, more variations in his rhythm (aggressiveness), and less struc-
tural development of phrases in the improvised choruses.

Throughout the years however, Evans's style has remained remarkably constant. His playing is cool in the sense that everything he plays seems to be exquisitely balanced and controlled. The peaks of intensity are lyrical, and even the fastest, most dazzling lines are executed with absolute precision. A high percentage of the titles he records are not show-stoppers but ballads and waltzes, and the Evans touch is at its best when the tempo is slow, the mood casual and affectionate, and the changes rich in harmonic implications. He has worked unceasingly to arrive at a clearer, less cluttered jazz conception, one with no false starts, no side issues, no merely showy licks. The logic with which one phrase follows another is impeccable. Though he sometimes uses locked-hands chords or moving left-hand figures, a typical Evans solo consists almost entirely of a single line in the right hand (occasionally incorporating some thirds) supported by sustained voicings in the left hand that have been almost brutally pared down untill all that remains is the naked skeleton of jazz harmony. The right-hand lines, long and intricate, have grown out of the bebop tradition, and in fact on some early recordings Evans's similarity to one of his two main idols, Bud Powell, is more apparent than on his mellower work. (Jim Aikin, Keyboard magazine, June 1980)

The thing that sets apart Bill Evans from other keyboard improvisers is the astonishingly high level of his spontaneous composition. Everything he plays has meaning and structure and such is the coordination of mind and hands that every improvised chorus emerges as a lyrical and skilfully wrought composition in its own right. There are no moments of "marking time", no ritual vamping until another favourite phrase is called to mind; and if there are cliches, then they are beloved phrases of Evans' own invention and part of the distinctive character of his music. (A comment by Mike Hennessey on a review by Stan Britt about the work of Bill Evans in "Jazz Journal International", november 1980)

Bill Evans' unique piano style is problably best summarised by Leonard Feather's "Encyclopedia of Jazz": "The most personal characteristics of his work were his uniquely delicate articulation, his oblique harmonic approaches and manner of voicing chords, his occasional use of the left hand in rhythmic duplication of the right-hand line, and the ability to create a warm, beautiful mood within the framework of a popular song, a jazz standard or an original work".

Markus · Сообщение **Markus** » Вс окт 25, 2009 12:45

Я ,как новичек в области импровизации,хотел бы попросить у профессионалов дать мне направления - как постигнуть азы импровизации не углубляясь в дебри -как прийти к интересной и вкусной импровизации поэтапно Музыкальное образование имею ,инструментом владею в совершенстве,слухом не страдаю чувство вкуса тоже вроде бы есть Заранее благодарю

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Markus писал(а):не углубляясь в дебри

Обходных путей нету,однако самый естественный выход- вращаться в среде импровизаторов.

Markus · Сообщение **Markus** » Вс окт 25, 2009 15:08

Поэтому я оказался здесь на форуме,а также интересуюсь и другими источниками

Инженер

Markus писал(а):Поэтому я оказался здесь на форуме,а также интересуюсь и другими источниками

Тут это "другие источники"; а "среда импровизаторов" -в "Шаблуле" каждый понедельник вечером.

Markus · Сообщение **Markus** » Пн окт 26, 2009 12:58

Здесь тоже есть что почерпнуть ,а насчет среды импровизаторов ,то в этом направлении тоже работаю .Жаль только что свободного времени не так много

Markus · Сообщение **Markus** » Вт ноя 03, 2009 12:31

На данном форуме в других темах я нашел ту информацию ,которая нужна была мне.Спасибо этому форуму.